Author Topic: Forking problem again?  (Read 2627 times)

eRoh #15 on: October 19, 2016, 08:40:32 AM

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We have only 9 forgers. The network can't survive with only a few forgers. We need more people. I am thinking about closing my pool in the hope that people will forge and stabilize the network. If I do, I will give plenty of notice.

That is a good idea, because "... Also, a person with such a large stake in the network would be taking a big risk with their own wealth by attacking the network in a way which may undermine its credibility. ..."

I don't mean that you would be considering an attack, but showing that you don't want to have too much forging power is a good signal to the community.

See http://cryptorials.io/glossary/51-attack/ for details.

Now everybody start forging!  :cheers:
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eRoh #16 on: October 19, 2016, 07:37:24 PM

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Another reason to have more (benevolent and/or small) forgers?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-stake#Criticism

... or correct me if I'm the clueless one...
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warmach #17 on: October 20, 2016, 09:34:56 PM

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Ok...  I now hold the future of the network in my hands....  At the time of this writing, my pool is forging 54% of the last 1440 blocks...

http://fim.warmach.info/pool/index.php

Frankly, I don't want to be in this position. 

I'm happy that my pool is so popular, but this is dooming the network.  What to do?  Once my personal and OpenLedger accounts' leases expire, they will be forging themselves.  That takes about 1.4 million out of the pool.  But even still, we will be close to 50% block generation rate. 

What about setting a max forging amount?  Anyone who still has 1 million FIMK is pretty much a whale since everyone bailed for HEAT.  Those with 1 million should be forging on their own.  Maybe I should charge them 15% pool fee?  Problem is, this limit is easily circumvented with multiple accounts, so that may not work... 

I feel like my only option is to end the pool.  I hate to do that for the smaller FIMK holders. 

I would like a serious response from FIMK developers on the current state of the network.  And recommended steps to move forward.
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Eliphaz Fimk #18 on: October 21, 2016, 01:17:33 AM

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3 accounts (2M, 3M, 16M association) have been added to the forging power, so the circumstances should normalize without changes to your pool.

Quote
I would like a serious response from FIMK developers on the current state of the network.  And recommended steps to move forward.

You know the state of the network. There are few forgers. If there's 50% attack risk occasionally, then there is. Risk is a potential which can only manifest under certain circumstances. When you warmach control the pool, and as a respected FIMK community member you have control over such a stake, I'm not worried at all about such theoretical risk manifesting. There's no monetary incentive to rewrite the blockchain even if it was possible, and also it's not technically extremely simple to do so. So to be alerted there would need to be something specific that pulls the situation towards manifesting that risk, which I guess there doesn't exist?

However, it's good to state such concerns in public. Whenever such concerns arise, we'll try to do what is necessary to alleviate the situation.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 01:28:37 AM by Eliphaz Fimk »

warmach #19 on: October 21, 2016, 01:54:01 AM

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3 accounts (2M, 3M, 16M association) have been added to the forging power, so the circumstances should normalize without changes to your pool.

Thank you for helping out.  As I'm assuming these are mostly Krypto Fin accounts, where does the forging rewards go?  Back to the association?  Just asking for transparency sake.

You know the state of the network. There are few forgers. If there's 50% attack risk occasionally, then there is. Risk is a potential which can only manifest under certain circumstances. When you warmach control the pool, and as a respected FIMK community member you have control over such a stake, I'm not worried at all about such theoretical risk manifesting.

I thank you for your vote of confidence.  That means a lot to me that there is a trust between myself and this community.

There's no monetary incentive to rewrite the blockchain even if it was possible, and also it's not technically extremely simple to do so. So to be alerted there would need to be something specific that pulls the situation towards manifesting that risk, which I guess there doesn't exist?

My biggest concern was a potential for being hacked.  Having greater than 51% of the network lined me up as a potential target.  I do my best to prevent that from happening, but there no reason to stand in front of the target if you don't have to.  IMO, none of us should be in that position. 

There are different types of incentives to launch a blockchain attack.  Someone could want to discredit Krypto Finry by hacking FIMK and destroying it.  They could be doing it to harm HEAT.  Who knows what peoples motivation might be.  I think it is pretty narrow minded thinking to be only worried if there is a direct monetary incentive.

In addition, there are plenty of people who have the technical ability to re-write the blockchain.  As FIMK is a derivative of NXT, anyone involved in NXT development also has the know how to hack FIMK.  Plus, crypto currencies started on the back of some really smart people.  These are the same people who are creating new and exciting currency and blockchain tech.  While most are white hat developers, it only takes a few motivated black hats to ruin your day.

My point is that these types of things shouldn't be taken lightly.  Remember all the crazyness when one or two Bitcoin pools reached 45% of the network?  People went crazy and I feel rightfully so. 

Okay...I'll get off my soap box...   :-[
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eRoh #20 on: October 21, 2016, 06:38:59 AM

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Good thougths, warmach. Thanks to the association for taking this issue seriously.  :thumbup:
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dance #21 on: October 21, 2016, 06:38:08 PM

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My biggest concern was a potential for being hacked.
+1
The argument "attacker is not interested to make a 51% attack because it will devalue his stake" doesn't work in this situation.
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Eliphaz Fimk #22 on: October 21, 2016, 11:21:15 PM

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Thanks for the insightful post, warmach. Valid points.
I think it is pretty narrow minded thinking to be only worried if there is a direct monetary incentive.
Indeed. When you read my comment with a certain mindset -

So to be alerted there would need to be something specific that pulls the situation towards manifesting that risk, which I guess there doesn't exist?

It should be clear that it was loaded rhetoric aimed to probe your / the community's understanding about possible motives beyond the directly observed circumstances. Maybe I structured it too politely to make sure to not incriminate your status, however the conclusion is obvious: The chances for ulterior motives aren't far beyond the surface. So the safety measures we do take are important.

eRoh #23 on: November 04, 2016, 07:56:15 AM

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Could you tune down Krypto Fin ry forging support? Now it's forging a lot more than its stake suggests, so maybe there are forking problems again. At least all of the pools have dropped off from the list:
https://lompsa.com/#/activity/fim/forgers/latest
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Eliphaz Fimk #24 on: November 05, 2016, 12:22:02 AM

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Forging support switched off for now.

Monitoring situation for the 50% ball on warmach's pool

Corporate backend jks certificates mismatch has been fixed, so Lompsa.com and thin clients should be operating normally now after a day of downtime.

warmach #25 on: November 05, 2016, 01:14:12 PM

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Could you tune down Krypto Fin ry forging support? Now it's forging a lot more than its stake suggests, so maybe there are forking problems again. At least all of the pools have dropped off from the list:
https://lompsa.com/#/activity/fim/forgers/latest

While I don't know for sure, I think the wild swings in forging is because there is a smaller number of people and total FIMK forging. Before the HEAT buyout, we had like 30+ forgers and 200 - 300 million FIMK forging. Now, we have about 10-12 forgers and 60 million FIMK. I think we just need more whales!

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May the forge be with you...

eRoh #26 on: November 06, 2016, 09:44:08 AM

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While I don't know for sure, I think the wild swings in forging is because there is a smaller number of people and total FIMK forging. Before the HEAT buyout, we had like 30+ forgers and 200 - 300 million FIMK forging. Now, we have about 10-12 forgers and 60 million FIMK. I think we just need more whales!

Yes, that's what I have observed. There's a certain (approximate) ratio between FIMK held by a forger and the amount they forge. If there's one "too" large stakeholder (be it The Association, your pool or any other pool or individual forger), the ratio might get distorted, so that all/most of the other forgers end up in a fork. I know there shouldn't be 51% attack problem in NXT derivatives like FIMK, but the results are similar.

I'd say about half a dozen roughly equal sized whales (each one of them forging on different servers) should restore the balance. But if any of them is 5-10 times larger than any of the others, problems start to arise. (I don't have any exact calculations to support this theory, just a hunch based on the forging history)

Besides the whales, there are some small forgers, who seem to be able to forge the "correct" amount, at least when the overall situation is healthy. That's why I would encourage anyone, even with a small amount of FIMK to run a server and start forging!  :thumbup:
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eRoh #27 on: November 07, 2016, 09:11:52 PM

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Forging support switched off for now.

Or not? Still forging/forking and causing instability in the network.
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Eliphaz Fimk #28 on: November 08, 2016, 11:30:05 AM

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Or not? Still forging/forking and causing instability in the network.
It was switched off, then back on, because without it the pool seems to regain dominating position.

Instability? I thought the "instability" arises from warmach's pool getting >51% control. What kind of instability does balancing the largest forgers with forging support cause?

eRoh #29 on: November 08, 2016, 05:35:54 PM

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What kind of instability does balancing the largest forgers with forging support cause?

As I explained, the forging support was too large compared to the pools and other whales. Now it's better in line with the largest pool, so let's hope the situation gets better. Still hoping for more members of the millionaire club to start (individually) forging, however...
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